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  Why does Blizz hate 10 man guilds? |
01/28/10 04:39:09 PM
Patch 3.3.0a
Madyaks |
There are too many examples to list,
we know it's true, I just wonder why.
Why not have good gear drop in 10 man raids too, why not the good
stuff for us?
Q. Is the mount available in both 10 and 25 Heroic?
A. Invincible will only be available in the 25-person Heroic
encounter with the Lich King.
Why not make 10 man content just as hard as 25 man, and give both
the same rewards?
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01/28/10 05:11:54 PM
Patch 3.3.0a
Crygil |
Q u o t e:
There are too many examples to list, we know it's true, I just
wonder why.
Why not have good gear drop in 10 man raids too, why not the good
stuff for us?
Q. Is the mount available in both 10 and 25 Heroic?
A. Invincible will only be available in the 25-person Heroic
encounter with the Lich King.
Why not make 10 man content just as hard as 25 man, and give both
the same rewards?
Blizzard loves 10-person content guilds just as much as we love
25-person content guilds. The reason for having this mount in the
25-person Lich King encounter has to do with maintaining the proper
distribution of such awesomeness. If it were available in the
10-person encounter as well, it may become too prolific and lose
some of its initial unique qualities.
[ Post edited by
Crygil ]
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01/28/10 06:40:06 PM
Patch 3.3.0a
Crygil |
Q u o t e:
And the reason why there wouldn't be a 10-player version of
Invincible and a 25-player version of Invincible is because it's
really supposed to be one horse. One awesome horse of awesome, but
one horse.
On a related question, honored Fel Reaver, is there any plan to
address the fact that 10-man hard modes are dramatically more
difficult than 25-man hard-modes because of the greater dependence
on each player's contribution to the raid? Or the assertion that
10-man hard modes cannot be accomplished without gear only
available in 25-man content?
For example: How many dedicated 10-man guilds have accomplished
Earth, Wind, and Fire (10)? Without the use of gear from 25-man
modes?
The 10-person heroic raid dungeons are tuned in such a way that
players do not need to rely on gear from the 25-person normal mode
equivalents. We made many adjustments along the way to make that
possible. While it can be helpful to obtain additional gear from
the 25-person normal modes, it's certainly not necessary and we
were pleased to see so many players able to attempt and complete
the 10-person heroic encounters in ToC who progressed exclusively
from 10-person normal ToC. Often times players feel that they need
to obtain items from higher content in order to complete Heroic
encounters, when improved strategies would equally suffice.
We will continue watching upcoming content in the future to make
certain that we are able to adjust these encounters and keep them
aligned with our goals.
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01/28/10 07:29:34 PM
Patch 3.3.0a
Crygil |
Q u o t e:
Every guild I've been in recently has been a 10 man raiding guild.
They made raiding accessible so people would want to do it. Getting
ten people together to raid is definitely easier, and thus there
are plenty of ten man raiding guilds. The few guilds I've been in
who had 25 man raids going on regularly had really strict rules
about getting in, and only had around 28 people who even got to
raid with them. Getting into that group would not really be
possible.
Crygil, the problem is not so much that people feel inadequately
equipped to handle the 10 mans with only 10 man gear, it's that
outside of the raids, people look at your gear for more than just
how pretty it is. They look at item levels, and stats. People also
use the gear to run older content, like heroics, or to PvP. It's
perfectly fine confined to the raiding scene. My ten man gear is as
good in relation to ten man content as my twentyfive man gear is
for twentyfive. The problem stems outside of that, when we both
exit our respective instance and suddenly they're wearing gear as
good as the stuff I will get for being a top of the line ten man
raider, simply for doing the dungeon the same way I did. Now
they're stronger in PvP, they do better in heroics, have more
health, more dodge, more damage, simply because they had more
friends go with them. The problem is that in the end, gear is gear,
but it's also a status symbol, and their status symbol is top of
the line whilst ours, which is supposedly an equal alternative
option, is in fact only a tiny step up from their last tier of
gear.
For illustrative purposes...
(link removed) is the Bastion of Resolve. A caster shield from
Trial of the Crusader 25.
(link removed) Now here is Lost Pravise of the Blue Flight, a
caster shield from Icecrown Citadel 10. Notice how if I were to
wear the ICC item over the TotC item, I'd gain about 180 armor, 5
each of intellect and stamina, 3 haste, and 5 spellpower?
Yeah.
This means that I could just go run the old raid from months ago,
and get an item which is only about 50 hp, 75 mana, and maybe 50
point higher heals which cast 0.01 seconds faster, than the new
content shield. Why should anybody even bother with ICC10 when it's
more or less equal to TotC25 gear? Heck, If I wanted to go the
extra little distance, which wouldn't be all that hard now with the
badge gear, and run TotGC25, and gain items even BETTER than the
ICC10 ones.
The fact is, that 10 mans are a joke. You guys continue to pump
them out, and I understand why. In the end I'd rather do the
content with no drops than not get to see it at all, but it'd still
be nice if I was able to run 10 mans and actually feel like I'd
accomplished something beyond making myself better equipped to do
the real raid if I ever find myself in a position to actually get
to join one.
It's as simple as logistics. When in a 25-person instance, you are
using 25 peoples time. This makes accumulating that number of
players more difficult to achieve. This alone does not entitle them
to gear that is slightly better than that achieved in 10-person
raiding. We also scale the difficulty of the encounters up in the
larger group of players. Thus, because of added difficulty, they
achieve slightly better rewards. The ease of assembly in the
10-person environment and the reduced difficulty (in non-Heroic)
have to be taken into account with the level of reward given
out.
That said, the rewards are still outstanding and generally a step
up from previous content.
On a side note, why do people throw around the word "Fact" when
it's attached to a wholly subjective interpretation? It isn't a
fact... it's an opinion. In order to help correct this trend of
erroneous fact-citing, I've included the definition of a the
word"Fact" below.
Main Entry: fact
Pronunciation: \ˈfakt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin factum, from neuter of factus, past participle of
facere
Date: 15th century
1 : a thing done: as a obsolete : feat b : crime <accessory
after the fact> c archaic : action
2 archaic : performance, doing
3 : the quality of being actual
4 a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is
now a fact> b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of
damage>
5 : a piece of information presented as having objective
reality
[ Post edited by
Crygil ]
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01/29/10 06:10:31 PM
Patch 3.3.0a
Crygil |
Q u o t e:
And couldn't a modified or alternate version of "Invincible"
be made available in the 10-man version that would distinguish it
from the 25-man, thus maintaining the "awe" associated with the
25-man version (see, i.e., Black v. Twilight Drake; Plagued v.
Black Proto-Drake; Rusted v. Iron Proto-Drake)?
There are other plans in motion on that front and we are not at
liberty to discuss them yet.
Q u o t e:
But doesn't that mean that you are concerned that the 10-man heroic
version of the fight would be (all things relative, of course)
"easy" for a group of 10 raiders who are geared for 25-man content?
Isn't there a reasonable way to tune the fight such that the
difficulty of the fight is not overcome by simply having better
gear
As for whether or not we are concerned about the possibility of
25-person geared players heading in to the 10-person Heroic and
potentially trivializing the encounter... Yes, of course we are.
Can we make a fight that has absolutely nothing to do with gear?
Yes we can, but that would be counter to the growth of the
characters involved. Gear influences every style of
gameplay(Tank/Damage/Healing) in some way or another. To
make it entirely divorced from the Lich King encounter wouldn't be
the most epic experience we could deliver. There will be a massive
skill portion to this encounter, but we are not going to move gear
100% out of the equation.
There are unfortunate side effects of maintaining two distinct
types of raids. The raid with the smaller number of people
participating has to be tuned around that style of participation,
made for the people who have been a part of that group. Whereas the
raid with the greater number of players is likewise geared toward
that larger group. The more people you have, the more difficult
(numerically) you can make the encounters. This also means that you
can factor in certain amounts of leeway in larger groups and
tighten those. I.E. There will be more healers, thus there can be
more raid damage; there will be more tanks, thus there can be more
encounters that benefit from additional tank mechanics and so
forth.
Now, all that is just to say, the Lich King encounter versions
given to the two groups are tuned to each individual 10 or 25
person type. The tweaking we are able to do, on the larger group
version, can be pulled even further toward the very top end of
super hard. While the 10 person encounter must continue to rely
only on items achievable and composition available to players in
the that raid type. This lends itself to players from the 25-person
raid seeking out achievements and other bonuses in 10-player
content, but we cannot tune around their excursion into this area
without also excluding the very crowd that this content was
intended for. That does not mean that it will be trivially easy for
one group to move in either direction, but that is intended to be
the case. We want the Lich King to be difficult, in-both 10 and 25
versions and we hope that you all enjoy this climactic
encounter.
[ Post edited by
Crygil ]
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01/29/10 09:56:16 PM
Patch 3.3.0a
Crygil |
Q u o t e:
You kinda missed what he was getting at. We all understand that you
have to balance 10 raids around 10 gear which necessarily makes it
easier for 25 manners... but why should 25 manners do our content?
Simple solution seems to be to share the lockout. When I did 25s
high end, I always felt it silly to have to run the same content
(basically) multiple times in order to keep up with the joneses of
25 man progression. Fix the itemization holes in 10s, share the
lockouts & finally give 10 manners doing 10 man heroics in
appropriate gear something to look forward to.
The matter is more complex than that. It's not a good thing to take
away content from players, be it 10-person or 25-person. There is a
good deal of overlap and often larger guilds will allow their
experienced raiding members to run "PuGs", in so far as it doesn't
conflict with their guild raid. The point here is not to close off
options. It is one thing to have content that you can utilize, but
choose not to. However, it is a totally different matter to be
suddenly barred from content. This, among other reasons, is why we
won't take away either players' set of options. If you choose to do
a 25 person raid, but are normally a 10-person raider (like
myself), then that option is there for you and vice versa.
[ Post edited by
Crygil ]
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01/30/10 07:21:32 AM
Patch 3.3.0a
Crygil |
Q u o t e:
You are comparing the phrase 'choose not to' to the experience of
pugging a 25 man on, say, Duskwood - Alliance.
That's not intellectually honest.
You're ignoring what GearScore, Achievements, and the Dungeon
Finder have done to at least some of the realms. You can't simply
'choose to' pick up a functional raid with anything close to a
guarantee of participation, let alone success. The selection of
good players that are also decent raiders has plummeted to near
zero. The number of raid leaders who are willing to put raids
together is diminishing daily, and those will typically only want
those raiders who have already done the content multiple times.
This further limits the possibilities.
The concepts of what you are saying check out, but to make this
sort of statement implies you're not actually trying to do what
you're advocating people do. Please test it and get back to us with
your experiences.
I've PuG'ed my way to Putricide in 25-person content. I did have to
talk my way in, as I did not previously have the achievement for
the first wing encounters.
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